Contents. Her Species I was originally tempted to put her species as 'midget', just because it both seemed more appropriate and prevented any confusion with the short alcoholics everybody loves (not, natch), but 'Shining Needles' sounds like something the Dwarf Fortress name generator might produce so I decided against it. 18:04, 12 August 2013 (UTC) Can't we just use the original Japanese? - 02:08, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I'd consider it. There's already been some controversy over the use of 'dwarf' for kobito. 02:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I'm going to switch it over to 'kobito'. 'Dwarf' is pretty clearly wrong, and I haven't seen anything resembling consensus on a translation - 03:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I'm against using the original Japanese for 'kobito'.

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I can't find any good justification for retaining it when it literally means 'small person', is not a unique Japanese concept, and has several English alternatives. Unfortunately for us, the English alternatives do have undesired connotations associated with them. 'Dwarf' brings the image of a short miner, whether in RPGs or in Snow White. 'Midget' is pejorative. About the only alternative I can think of is 'little person', but that is clunky. 03:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I think 'dwarf' is the best word to use. I think Shinmyoumaru's spell card 七人の一寸法師 is referencing 七人の小人, or the Seven Dwarfs (as in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs).

Japanese Wikipedia also uses 'dwarf' as an equivalent for (the other alternatives are and, but I'm personally not a fan). 06:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC) My vote is for 'dwarf' or 'elf'.

The story refers to what is essentially a dwarf, not a strange thing in a strange suit (a kobito). Also, an entire Wikipedia category is devoted to, which has its English counterpart as. 07:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC) It may be interesting to note that in at least one instance in the scientific community, a 'kobito' specimen referred to a specific type of dwarfism. 07:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Okay, let's go down the list: 'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore. 'Elf' makes people think of pointy-eared tree-huggers and is pretty much entirely wrong even if you ignore that. 'Little people' is and a fairly literal translation, but would be rather clunky.

I've seen 'inchling' proposed, and it works fairly well, but is a more liberal translation than this fandom usually uses - 08:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC) If you look at something like Attack on Titan (which DDC even references indirectly) 巨人 is translated as 'titan'. Following similar logic, I think 小人 could logically be translated as 'dwarf'. Of course, there are probably lots of others examples and precedence too.

Just because Shinmyoumaru doesn't have a pickax or a pointy hat doesn't make it wrong. Otherwise Kagerou wouldn't be a werewolf because she doesn't actually get hairy all over, and Wakasagihime wouldn't be a mermaid because she doesn't have a shellfish bra. There's no need to be so picky, people use dwarf just as general word for these kind of little people myths. 09:53, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Kobito are way smaller than dwarves though , so that would give the wrong impression. My vote's for 'inchling' or 'littlefolk'. 14:26, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Fan translators of the One Piece manga are translating the little people in the latest chapters as Dwarves. IMHO, if it's good enough for a popular manga like One Piece, it's good enough for Touhou.

14:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC) 'Dwarf' universally bring to mind bearded miners anymore.' What are we, the government? We are a fanbase! We do not have to be politically correct, just accurate.

Also, 'inchling', 'littlefolk', and 'little person' may be too complex. After viewing the evidence presented here, my strong vote is for 'dwarf'. 17:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Why? What value does 'dwarf' have over, say, 'inchling'?

'Dwarf' is misleading, refers to a subset of the folktales she references, and is kind of level-breaking. I honestly can't see any reason to use it when we have alternatives available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (. ) 20:42, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Why would we use alternatives if they're all just subsets as well?

The fact is, Dwarf is the most common term, and therefor, besides being a subset, it's also the go-to description for little people in general. It's even a common adjective, like dwarf planet or dwarf-ism or things like that. It's just a very common term which can mean a variety of things.

20:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC) People are already mislead into thinking that Sukuna is a Nordic Dwarf because of the initial response to the translation. Simply put, calling something a Dwarf in a fantasy setting that has a few other western myths (like Vampires and Mermaids and Werewolves) will make people think she's the kind of Dwarf you'd see in Lord of the Rings or somesuch. I believe it's best to be as accurate as possible without causing mythological confusion. I'm for calling her 'One of the Little People' or somesuch.

21:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Sorry for butting in but.yeah. Anything but 'dwarf'. While it may be the most common term used for this, most English speaking folks have a very clear idea of what a dwarf is. They aren't going to think of brownies or Tom Thumb or the like, they are going to think of the grouchy cave dwellers with beards, which Sukuna isn't. So calling her that gives the wrong impression about what she is. Also, unlike some of the earlier DDC bosses, there is not even a attempt to associate her with two different 'types' of creatures. Anyway, little people, littlefolks, inchling, I'd be fine with all those.

Sorry for the trouble.- 21:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I find calling her a dwarf to be hilarious, but mostly because it brings to mind the exact wrong image. As in, I'm going to keep calling her a dwarf myself, but as a joke. For the purposes of the wiki though, it's just bad. Beards and pickaxes are one thing, but I think the main problem is size.

'Dwarf' makes people think of, well, dwarves, which in both mythology and reality are basically really short people. They still have roughly human width though. Whereas the 'little people' referred to in the legends Sukuna is based on are more like Tom Thumb: extremely tiny people who you might mistake for a bug.

A huge difference in size. If a dwarf is half a person, then a kobito (in this particular context) is like a thousandth of a person. There's an order of magnitude wrong here.

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Honestly I have no idea how big Sukuna is supposed to be in Touhou, and it's kind of irrelevant because she can change sizes with the hammer, but the fact that she's holding a sewing needle tells us what kind of kobito she's supposed to be, and it's not the 'dwarf' kind. 22:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I have no idea if this helps at all, but Sukuna-hikona-no-kami is Japanese deity who is often referred to being a 'dwarf' or 'pygmy' in size. 'Sukuna-hikona' means 'renowned little prince.' This doesn't really help with the whole kobito/dwarf/inchling debate, but maybe someone can find something related which would help. Personally, I'm in favor of 'pygmy,' but that also may conjure up the wrong images. Oh dear what have I started. But now that Hylarn has brought up 'inchling' I do find that the most appropriate term so far, not that my opinion is worth much by even my own standards.

Either way, the spellcard should definitively keep the reference. 22:57, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Better to get it started now than have to sort out everything later like with the Yama. The reference in the spellcard's pretty obviously about a different tale altogether, so yeah, that should probably remain as dwarf. But that just makes it all the more important to make sure Shinmyoumaru's race isn't 'dwarf'. Using the same word to describe Shinmyoumaru as is used to reference the seven dwarves is going to make people assume she's the same sort of dwarf. Also, as Clarste pointed out, 'dwarf' isn't commonly understood to mean 'sewing-needle-sized,', but rather 'smallish person'.

I think 'Inchling' is probably best, though 'littlefolk' could work as well. It really ought to be something without an already strong cultural presence in English, though. That's probably the key part. 23:48, 13 August 2013 (UTC) I think 'inchling' and 'littlefolk' are good alternatives, and wouldn't mind if either were chosen. 00:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I'll support 'inchling' too.- 00:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC) 'Inchling' sounds good to me also.

01:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC) How about 'lilliputian'? But 'Inchling' is okay I guess. 02:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I think that the name of the character and story of 'Issun' has been translated as 'Little One-Inch' before. I've never heard the term inchling before, but it's intuitive enough. I've never heard of 'lilliputian' before and I have no idea what it means. The biggest problem with these terms is that no one's even heard them before and there's nothing official about them, but they probably wouldn't be too bad. 02:32, 14 August 2013 (UTC) Lilliput is the name of a fictional country in Gulliver's Travels which is inhabited by tiny people.

The story is fairly well-known, so I don't think 'Lilliputian' is wrong per se, but tying it so closely to something specific might be a problem. Also it's surprisingly long and I don't think anyone wants to type that over and over again. I've never heard of 'inchling' before, but not only is it incredibly intuitive, it actually seems to be used in an official English translation of the Issun story ('Issun Boshi the Inchling' is for sale at Amazon.com). 03:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I am a bit disappointed that the comments are now shying away from using 'dwarf'.

As a biologist, I can say that 'dwarf' is the most commonly-used term of the choices in academia. Also, 'inchling' sounds extremely derogatory in nature to me. If we will not use 'dwarf', then we should probably use 'kobito', even though that may conjure up thoughts of to some Eastern fans (just like many of you were thinking of the typical stereotype for dwarves). Although it does sound derogatory, some children's books do refer to Issun Boshi as an 'inchling'.

09:42, 14 August 2013 (UTC) No matter what is picked, it's going to conjure up unrelated images. I second using either 'dwarf' or 'kobito.'

10:03, 14 August 2013 (UTC) The fact that, as a biologist, you know it's a commonly used term is exactly why it's the worst possible translation. Dwarf actually means something in English that has nothing to do with fantasy, and as far as I know does not cover this particular kind of being. 'Kobito' happens to cover that sort of thing in Japanese too (dwarf elephants and whatnot), but it's also a much broader term. If you were a folklorist then maybe your assessment would have the weight you feel it should. To be fair, the wikipedia article on Tom Thumb claims that the original title of the story was ' The History of Tom Thumbe, the Little, for his small stature surnamed, King Arthur's Dwarfe: whose Life and adventures containe many strange and wonderfull accidents, published for the delight of merry Time-spenders' but unless we want to go with 'dwarfe' I don't think random archaisms are entirely appropriate.for the record she's supposed to be like the size of a mouse. This issue might be confusing to some people since she uses the mallet's magic to grow during the boss fight.- 10:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC) The names that have been suggested thus far are 'kobito,' 'dwarf,' 'inchling,' 'Lilliputian,' and 'pygmy.'

Assuming that we want to use a translation as opposed to the original Japanese, that leaves us with 'dwarf,' 'inchling,' 'Lilliputian,' and 'pygmy.' 'Lilliputian' is not a good term because those who are not familiar with Gulliver's Travels will not understand it. Eliminating that, we are left with 'dwarf,' 'inchling,' and 'pygmy.' When reading translations of Japanese mythology, I have seen all three terms used for 'kobito'. Of the 3, I think that 'inchling' is the least acceptable, mythologically speaking, but works best in size.

While Shinmyoumaru is partially based on the tale of Issun-boshi, her surname most definitely comes from the dwarf/pygmy god Sukuna-hikona-no-kami. I have never seen the term 'inchling' used to describe Sukuna-hikona, but I have seen 'dwarf' used to describe both of them. We also have that spellcard which references Snow White. Anything that we pick is not going to be an ideal translation, but considering the myths and folktales associated with her, I think that 'dwarf' is the best option. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (. ) 11:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I feel your argument makes a stronger case for 'Kobito' (Or the generic 'littlefolk') than for 'dwarf'. As far as I know, Sukuna-hikona-no-kami doesn't exactly have an indication of size other than 'smaller than normal.'

I think it important that her size be conveyed simply, which 'dwarf' fails to do, and with the Snow white reference, 'dwarf' would easily mislead people into assuming a height measuring in feet. 'Littlefolk' at least avoids any preconceptions, and is vague enough to be a decent translation of the vague 'kobito'. I do think 'inchling' best gets across the idea of what Sukuna is, but if we want the deliberate vagueness, then 'Littlefolk' would be infinitely better than 'dwarf'. It carries far less baggage.- 14:06, 14 August 2013 (UTC) What about 'pygmy', then?

It's not used very often in English language (at least not to my knowledge), so there's no real 'baggage' associated with it; plus it sounds better (to me) than creating a new word. ― 14:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC) My argument was mostly 'if we have to pick a translation what would make the most sense with the terms we have.' While I do like 'pygmy,' there are around the world. Like with 'dwarf,' we suffer from the problem of the word also being used to describe people as well as a mythological race. As for Sukuna-hikona-no-kami, in the translations I've seen from the late 1800s he is described as being dwarf/pygmy sized (note to self, check copy of Kojiki to see what it says.), but in other ones he's just small sized. 14:39, 14 August 2013 (UTC) The problem is, the word 'kobito' is also used for actual people in real life, not just the mythological creature.

When you look at it that way, it has the same exact problem. ― 15:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC) There's no need to come up with a word that encapsulates every single meaning of the word 'kobito'. While that would ideal of course, the goal of a translation is to let the readers understand what's up. Dwarf carries tons of incorrect connotations, mostly of size, because it is never used to describe tiny mouse-sized people. Kobito mostly has the same meanings as the English dwarf, but it is also used to describe tiny mouse-sized people. Even if that's the only difference in the meanings of the words, that's all the difference we need. Yes, her spellcards make reference to other stories where in English we would use the word 'dwarf' but what does that have to do with anything?

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Just chalk it up as a pun we can't translate. Or use something intentionally generic like 'littlefolk'.

I don't think that sort of consideration should force us to choose a word that will confuse 80% of our audience, especially since a lot of art will likely show her in 'giant' form where she's only slightly shorter than a human.- 22:53, 14 August 2013 (UTC) Actually, I wasn't aware 小人 could refer to tiny mouse-sized people in the first place. Dictionary just says, an extremely short person, alternatively an imaginary very short person in fairy tales. Doesn't even really mention any kind of Japanese/Shinto mythology, which actually isn't surprising since ZUN pulls a lot of obscure stuff out for Touhou. ― 23:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC) Yeah, he does that. I think that we should just leave it as 'kobito.' 23:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC) Accuracy aside, accessibility is another issue, though.

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While there may be no exact English equivalent to the sense of 'kobito' used here, there are words that come close, and it can sometimes be worth it to use a less-accurate English word instead. Though it's unfortunate that, in this case, they have the associated 'baggage'. So if people are caring this much about other people's feelings, then 'kobito' is probably the way to go.

I think we should still keep the spellcard 'attack on dwarf' though because that sounds awesome ― 23:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC) I'd feel much better going with 'Littlefolk' than 'kobito'. It's probably the closest thing to a straight translation with all vagueries intact and doesn't carry any real baggage.

If we leave it as 'Kobito', I forsee this exact conversation repeating itself rather often until we do settle on a translation. So I'm still thinking 'Littlefolk', or 'Inchling' if we want to make it absolutely clear what sort of size Sukuna is, which I think would be a good idea.

01:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC) I also like Clarste's previous mention of 'inchling' - it fits pretty perfectly, and is even used in certain translations of the original story. It also doesn't have the 'made up' feeling of 'Littlefolk'. I definitely prefer inchling to leaving it in Japanese. Also, I might make a pro/con list in a little while to sum the discussion up. ― 12:50, 15 August 2013 (UTC) Of the 2, I'm actually for the opposite.

'Little folk,' to me, seems less made up than 'inchling,' because there are classified as that. While I do think that 'inchling does more obviously describe her size, if we use that, part of the connection with her surname is partially lost. I guess that's only minor though, since not many fans here will probably have heard of Sukuna-hikona-no-kami. 15:38, 15 August 2013 (UTC) Summary and pros and cons (please feel free to edit):.

Koropokguru. Pros; is the oldest word that describes what she is. Comes from the Ainu, indigenous people of Japan. Cons; hard to pronounce.